Sadly I can now only contribute to this thread by acknowledging how thought provoking I have found many of the comments. I am sure I am not alone in this, so my point is keep the thread positive, opposing views non-argumentative, as I continue to lurk and learn.
The Rebel
JoinedPosts by The Rebel
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210
Morality Without Deity
by cofty inone of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.
it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.
christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.
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401
So, the Womens March ... What Is It For?
by Simon init seems like mobilizing after the election, which seems pointless.
i keep hearing demands for equal rights but don't understand what rights they are missing exactly.. normally a march is to show the support (and potential votes) for a cause, but ... votes for what?
... and the election happened already.. is anyone else confused?
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The Rebel
When you get 3 million people, marching and feeling the same way, it can often be the result of a group mentality, which has taken over rational thinking. I am not in to this type of hysteria, or at least I think it's better suited to football matches.
I am not saying that marching doesn't have a good cause, but I often feel large demonstrations have only achieved giving a bad demonstration to that cause.
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401
So, the Womens March ... What Is It For?
by Simon init seems like mobilizing after the election, which seems pointless.
i keep hearing demands for equal rights but don't understand what rights they are missing exactly.. normally a march is to show the support (and potential votes) for a cause, but ... votes for what?
... and the election happened already.. is anyone else confused?
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The Rebel
My answer to the O.P " What is the woman's march for " is that it is for " Ego". It would only be right and proper that I am red flagged for my opinion with those who don't agree. But my answer to the O.P is " Ego"
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Absolute moral standards and fiction.
by The Rebel innot all beliefs are worthy of respect, but when we read a book of fiction in my mind it's easier to travel outside ourselves and our absolute moral standards.
fiction allows our imagination to be free.
i haven't read " fifty shades of grey" but i read " romeo and juliet" at school,and juliet was 13, romeo i believe was supposedly around 18 or 19.
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The Rebel
Vanderhoven7 " well I suppose a case can be made that all is fair in war....."
I think the only case that can be made is that man isn't good, and that those that have the power have the right, which is why the wheels of " war, torture, making deals with the enemy...." will roll on.
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210
Morality Without Deity
by cofty inone of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.
it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.
christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.
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The Rebel
As a landlord it is my job to have the gas and electrics up to standard. However if I employ a qualified electrician and he does the electrics, yet a serious electrical problem still occurs, i would still feel responsible and devastated, if something tragic happenned to my tenants.Why? Because I am the Landlord and the safety of the tenants is my responsibility. If the electrician f...ks up, it doesn't excuse my responsibility.
This is the problem I have with God, he has a lower moral standard than I, he simply hasn't done enough, and the sentimental story of sending his son to die for our sins, is a bit like me passing the responsibility on to my electrician. If God created man he should have known of the risk factor and that things could go wrong. In my opinion the fact that we have tsunamis, and so much senseless tragity in the world is proof that if God exists and created mankind, he has no moral standard and is not worthy of my respect. However if a person feels they can make sense of this God and find him all loving, then i hope they will also understand why I can't?
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Absolute moral standards and fiction.
by The Rebel innot all beliefs are worthy of respect, but when we read a book of fiction in my mind it's easier to travel outside ourselves and our absolute moral standards.
fiction allows our imagination to be free.
i haven't read " fifty shades of grey" but i read " romeo and juliet" at school,and juliet was 13, romeo i believe was supposedly around 18 or 19.
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The Rebel
Vanderthtown, "According to objective morality, was it moral to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki?"
It's certainly worth discussing if the bombing was an act of terroisam, as opposed to an act of war?
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I spoke to 2 Jobos on a cart but I refused to discuss religion
by punkofnice ini was in a good mood yesterday (makes a bloody change, i hear you say).
i was meeting an old buddy for a meal.
he was never a jobo.
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The Rebel
On Friday I was in town and saw two young girls ( 25-30) on a cart. I said very politely " Do you realize you are in a cult". One politely asked why I said that, I very politely mentioned the royal commission, blah blah blah. She said " If I am wrong I will research it " I returned a little later, because having thought on our communication, I didn't want her to research and be without a contact. " can I give you my wife's number, so if you research and need talk with someone you have a contact" She thanked me put my wife's number on her phone....
That's the beauty of the cart, it catches many witnesses out of the witness mode, open to discussion and not on mind control alert as when they witness door to door.
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Absolute moral standards and fiction.
by The Rebel innot all beliefs are worthy of respect, but when we read a book of fiction in my mind it's easier to travel outside ourselves and our absolute moral standards.
fiction allows our imagination to be free.
i haven't read " fifty shades of grey" but i read " romeo and juliet" at school,and juliet was 13, romeo i believe was supposedly around 18 or 19.
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The Rebel
Vanderhoven7 " The only way absolute moral standards could exist is if there exists an absolute standard creator"
Good point, let's put our moral standards in the boxing ring, if I were Mahammed Ali i would knock the opponent out, without any mercy. ( And the public would and did love it)
I was always amazed growing up in England, that the generation that survived WW2 thought Punk music was evil and could bring down the establishment. I never got that.
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Fancy becoming emotionally attached to a pair of Jeans...
by The Rebel inand it was with great sadness that today my favorite pair of dirty denim, armani jeans were thrown in the bin.
they cost me £260 to purchase, and were value for money, as they were worn for many years and together we shared some wonderful occasions.they were stitched on numerous occasions, and loving repaired.
but today, and to my wife's relief i finally binned my amani jeans.
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The Rebel
" O" I wish I still had some of my childhood possessions. I owned model figures of " Hoss, Ben and Joe" from Bonanza, which today would be worth a small fortune.Today i would get such joyful memories reading my collection of Watford football club programs. Each match I attended was calculated, because my paper round job required getting up at at 6 in the morning seven days a week, yet it didn't cover a ticket to the match, a programe and the buss journey. So I usually sacrificed the buss and walked 50 minutes to the match and 50 minutes home afterwards so I was able to buy the match program.
I think from this thread we should be careful what we throw away. Or at least I won't be so strict on my boy, when we discard his old memorabilia.
p.s having a newspaper round as a kid, helped me with the initiative to window clean at 15, and I will teach my boy when he is 13 to earn his pocket money.
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Absolute moral standards and fiction.
by The Rebel innot all beliefs are worthy of respect, but when we read a book of fiction in my mind it's easier to travel outside ourselves and our absolute moral standards.
fiction allows our imagination to be free.
i haven't read " fifty shades of grey" but i read " romeo and juliet" at school,and juliet was 13, romeo i believe was supposedly around 18 or 19.
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The Rebel
Not all beliefs are worthy of respect, but when we read a book of fiction in my mind it's easier to travel outside ourselves and our absolute moral standards. Fiction allows our imagination to be free. I haven't read " fifty shades of grey" but I read " Romeo and Juliet" at school,and Juliet was 13, Romeo I believe was supposedly around 18 or 19.( This moral standard I was taught at school)
I think the moral compass we allow to exist in fiction is often different than what we would allow exist in our reality. When I read a story of fiction my moral compass does not see the same ethical responsibility I attach to my non-fiction moral standard. Is this because:-
A) of the art of language?
B) Can a good writer give us a different moral compass in fiction?
C) Does fiction have a different moral compass than our reality?
Story telling is in my opinion telling the stories of people's life's. This to me is the fundamental point of why I read fiction, yet the depiction of a character in the book of fiction,and the moral compass will I rarely judge. But with many books of non-fiction I read, if the "hero "of the story was a real person I wouldn't waste my time reading the book.